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Or is it??
The post that is two posts below this one (36 responses so far), depicting the scene so wonderfully directed and acted in from Northern Spanking, set my mind to writing about abuse today. I was actually going to write about attending parties and playing with people who are Married, but I will leave that one until later in the week.
So, when I first started in the wonderful world of online spanking back in 1999, I was always one of the first people to shout “ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE” whenever I witnessed or read about a scene that I did not enjoy. Even to this day there are times when that mindset approaches me still, but through the years I have developed the necessary wisdom in this area. You see, throughout the years, spanking has always meant one thing to me ever since I was a little boy, a naughty miscreant misbehaves, gets turned over the knee, and is spanked over their skirt, panties or bare bottom, or any combination of them all, with a certain object ranging from the hand to a brush.
I won’t bore you with minute details as I am sure you will all be able to work it out, but spanking for me was always OTK (Or over a bed/couch) and never varied, no other scene really interested me. Even though I gave my first spanking in 1979, my real spanking life actually started in 1999 online, and in 2002 in person. So despite 30 years of experience, I have only grown and matured in the spanking world in the last 7 years.
Now by grown I think I am saying that I have become not only more accepting, but as the years have gone on I have become more and more at ease with my own decisions as to what does it for me. After 25 years of living with the embarrassment, it took an awful long time to be comfortable with myself and begin to explore what it is that I want. Now then, what I did in 1979 may well be ALL I want, but unless I give other ideas and thoughts a chance I will never know.
So what is abusive in the adult spanking world, and who defines it? Just by the very nature of what we do, could anything be considered abusive, especially when non consensual consent has been given?
Before I get to a point that I stumble over my words, let me point out where I am in the spanking world. For many years I refused to use a cane or a belt due to my detachment from those items, as time went on though, I started to use those implements and quite honestly, I now enjoy using those implements. That is the top end of the scale that I am at, and it took me years to get there, though I can never say never again about what I may or may not do, because my views may change yet again. There is still a hard and fast rule that I have when I play, and it is basically at the lower end of the scale, just your basic OTK, naughty girl thing.
Ah, but, is that as far as I am prepared to go? No it isn’t, not by a long shot. If I was to write down into words here just exactly what I would consider to be the pinnacle of a 4 hour play session, it would probably shock a lot of people. A lot of what I would want to incorporate into that session would probably be considered abusive to some, or just a regular play session to others. Don’t worry, I’m not at that part of my life yet where I am comfortable with those thoughts, certainly not to share them, and I may never well be. Some fantasies may perhaps stay that until the day I die, just fantasies. There may be some of those elements that I introduce into my life very slowly, bit by bit.
When I read Niki Flynn’s wonderful book, Dances with Werewolves, it not only opened my eyes to a lot of what I perceived to be abusive behavior, but it also made me more aware of who I was as a person, and what direction I wanted to go in. I had this fear about what I was going to read in regards to Niki’s work with Rigid East, but figured I could skim that part and enjoy the rest of the book. As it turned out though, pretty much the whole book is centered on Niki’s time with Rigid East and quite frankly, I couldn’t get enough of it. The scenes themselves may still be much too harsh for me to watch, but I completely understood where Niki’s mind was emotionally during this time.
What the book taught me is that on the topic of abusive behavior, it was my OWN personal prejudices that defined what abuse constituted. This may sound rude to the people who wrote a reply to the Northern Spanking thread below, but I think it is a cop out to use society as the benchmark to define where the line is for abuse in our world. We, ourselves, set the benchmark line for perceived abuse, anything that we do not consider to be safe and sound based on our own life and experience, we consider abusive. Don’t think that I am anything different either, just earlier this year I was crying abuse after watching a video. Actually, I couldn’t watch the video, I just paused the video and scanned through it. In my eyes the video was done to show how hard one person could hit, and how much bruising they could inflict during that timeframe. If it was the woman who had said though “Hit me as hard as you can and make sure my butt is a deep purple afterwards”, who the hell am I to say that it is abusive just because it exceeded the boundary of my own personal comfort level?
I actually thought that this post was going to be longer but it isn’t, I think I have defined what abuse is to me. In the spanking world, abuse to me is anything that I consider to be beyond my own comfort level. There are a lot of scenes that are far harsher than I have ever done, or will ever do, that I can still sit back and thoroughly enjoy. It is the precise moment that it goes beyond what I find enjoyable that I start to consider it abusive.
The scene that was depicted so wonderfully by Stephen and Caroline, would I like to do a similar scene myself? The answer will shock you, especially those of you who know me personally and know that I play on the lighter end of the scale. The answer is, yes, very much so, I would love to be brave enough to try something like that. I would also like to tie my partner naked to a four poster bed and blindfold her, then use my words and actions to bring her to a state of ecstatic bliss by doing as I please to get her to the point that I want to get her to, with her consensual non consent of course. That will shock a lot of you who know me because it seems out of character, but it only scratches the surface of what I would consider to be nirvana.
I will keep turning girls over my knee and spanking them, I will continue to tolerate bratty behavior that I neither particularly enjoy, nor am fond of. Topping from the bottom will continue to happen, as will a lot of my personal needs being overlooked for the 80-20 split in favor of what the bottom wants. Most importantly, I will continue to judge spanking videos and stories as being abusive, simply because they have gone further than what my own personal prejudice level is. Is there a level to what is abusive in our lifestyle? As long as both parties have consented to it (and are CAPABLE of consenting to it) then the answer to me is, no, there is not. As the viewer I have my own level of toleration, for a vanilla that may be one solitary smack to a clothed bottom, but to a hardcore BDSM player it could be 1000 full force strokes of the cane. Whatever it is, once you reach that point you start to get into that grey area, not because it is abusive, but because it has exceeded your own comfort level.
*simply* Wonderfully stated, Rich. Societal norms often don’t apply to those of us who live outside of that box . . . . This much reminds me of the quote, “Anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone driving faster is a maniac.” We ourselves shape our world by our perception. . . .
There is much variety in the spanko world and there’s nothing wrong with that. The way some play is more severe than what appeals to me. Some scenes are not severe but still don’t appeal to me because of the scenario, like the clip in question. But just because something doesn’t appeal to me doesn’t make it abuse. And actually, I wouldn’t mind doing something like that for a movie, it IS something different and the same old can get old. I just don’t get turned on by the thought of something like that really happening is all.
I am one who wants my spankings hard, harder than some may feel is “ok” but screw what other people think, it’s what I want! I don’t like the very extreme kind where the bottom is left a bloody mess of raw hamburger and/or completely purple, but my spankings usually end with some bruises and welts. I crave the intensity. Light pats just bore me and seem hardly worth my time.
I have my limits and don’t want to go beyond them, if someone violates them they are abusing me. For others, getting a spanking like I get would be abuse. For still others, going beyond my limits is what they want and would not be abuse. To me abuse isn’t about how hard it is, it’s violating another person. As long as we’re not doing anything that would cause medical problems and as long as the spankee agrees to and wants what they get, I don’t see how you can call that abuse.
I didn’t know you didn’t like brattiness. I can’t always help it but will try not to brat you then lol. 🙂
Well put Richard. I think almost everyone can agree rape is bad. However one person could look at that video and think it’s horrible and another could look and think wow that’s amazingm, he is working so hard to please her. I mean that seriously. It must be hard being the top, there’s a lot expected of the person in that role.
I’ll admit my opinions are coming from a slightly different place, as I am not all that experienced in these situations but that’s my take anyway.
I love watching a good debate. Thanks Richard!
Dew I doubt anyone objectively looking at that would say how hard he was working to please her.
That said I most definitely did not enjoy the movie even knowing it was a fantasy. The lines were too easily blurred on this one.
First of all, you can’t abuse somebody consensually. Consensual abuse is an oxymoron. Sure, you could be doing something dangerous or insane consensually, and while that’s not abuse, it’s not too bright. That’s why one should always stick the fundamental guidelines of BDSM: Safe, Sane, and Consensual.
Second, anyone who has any amount of experience in the world of BDSM ought to know that most of what goes on is smoke and mirrors. It’s theater, just like what you see on your TV or at the movies. People pretend all the time. This is nothing new. That NS video is not an actual scene of assault. It’s acting. It’s not a doumentary. And even though it seems ludicrous to me to have to bring this to the forefront, I and others, like Richard Windsor himself, know the people involved, and know that they thoroughly enjoyed making the video. Heck, even the actress, Caroline, posted on this blog stating as much.
Third, and lastly, bottoms vary GREATLY in their style of play, in their pain tolerance, and in their desired intensity of play. What would be unthinkably severe for one bottom is just moderately severe for another bottom. So, it is virtually impossible to set a standard for what is too harsh. I have witnessed stuff that made me cringe in it’s intensity and severity and you know what, the bottoms gladly went through it. There was never one iota of doubt as to whether it was consensual, or furthermore, whether it was desirable. Who am I, or you, to judge whether or not that is OK?
hehehe…@ Suzy…I had the same question!!! LOL…
@Keagan- totally agree
Great post pup….love all the insight and secret info on how to annoy you, how to turn you off, and where to take it to turn you into mush! But really, thanks for the honesty in your opinion, I love that you did a pure this is how I feel, not solely coverage of the different opinions on the topic. I am in agreement with your last post, when I come to your blog, I want to know what YOU think about topics you cover and a bit of insight into how your spanko mind works.
sarah
Smiling devil – yes you can abuse someone consensually. If she agrees to have her arms cutoff, that is consensual but it is abuse. They are both probably insane, but was is done is consensual. If you send someone, not be accident, but deliberately into emergency surgery from your consensual play, you are playing consensually. But, that is still abuse.
Limits do apply. If you mutual goal is destruction, you can play consensually and be abusive.
That said, the vast, vast majority of consensual play is not abusive, despite what it might appear to me and others. On that, I agree with you.
Richard yes as long as the spankee is happy with the scenes and enjoys it best wishes ,tim .
@ Rob of NYC:
I get your point, but I disagree. Let me give a counterexample. Some people are into a type of BDSM play that involves piercing (or scaring) the skin to produce an effect of body modification. Heck, even tattooing is a form of body modification that invovles piercing with needles and blood. But is that abuse? Some people would say it is crazy and disgusting, while others would say it is art. But, I think most would agree that it is not abuse.
Excuse for Abuse.
I have studied “The social aspects of communication” for a good part of my life and always see much of the teachings back when I try (fail) to express myself in forums. (Maybe the reason that I resort to drawing).
I often fail to express exactly what and how I see certain issues. But know that such is common as most people select from ALL writings (Including the SUN, Richard) exactly that what they WANT to see. I see Houndog and Ludwig and others on the forums resorting to many words (as I do) and still having difficulties to communicate the exact content of their feelings and ideas.
So I try another way; a comparison.
My statement about Excuse for Abuse sounds like asking “Do you like food?’ in an expensive Gourmet restaurant, filled with food addicts. All addicts talking about their food preferences, tastes and specialties… (Like the many variations we feel and experience in our spanking activities).
A big chance they kick me out of the restaurant. But let’s assume they don’t and are prepared to be open for discussion.
It is my firm belief that the love for spanking can become an addiction (as it is with me) and most of us know that addicted people are notorious in denying their addiction, or the levels of addiction. Alcoholics will state they have no problems till they die from alcohol abuse. Drug users the same.
In spanking land we basically use two main excuses.
“Hey, but this happens between two consenting adults”, being the number ONE. To me that does not change the fact that our spanking activities can easily become abusive. When Ludwig talks about a short moment of Excruciating pain we – in my opinion – have already crossed the border. Certainly when he adds that the ‘money paid’ rectifies the pain. I do not agree with that as bodily harm should always be avoided in human life. A spanking may hurt but should never harm.
Marks that last for a year (Ludwig) are the result of abuse, whether you like it or not. People who allow or inflict such severe pain and marks are the culprits of their addiction.
The second most used excuse is:
“The spankee needs and want, even desires such harsh punishments”. Conveniently ignoring the fact that such spankees are as much addicted to pain as the spankers are to inflicting it. Thus creating potential for a “double form of abuse”. As both sides give in to their addiction. Creating the perfect environment for bodily and/or mental harm. And I am not in favor of that.
Yes, I hear all of you crying already: ‘But I do not DO that..!! What I do is consensual. And she loves food as much as I do…. A heavily over-weighted person will not be able to resist those expensive Gourmet restaurants. Always finding new excuses. Knowing very well that excessive food is not good for him/her. And – as I believe – that counts for excessive spanking too.
That is the comparison I’m trying to make. It is my firm belief that there is a tendency in our spanking world (as it is in our society with food) that enough is never enough. Competition between producers of spanking videos (or drawings, like me) can easily create the wrong environment, but we continue to deny that (as most addictives do).
I signal such developments the way I see it. A collector of spanking photos and videos, an amateur artists who loves to draw spanking scenes, and an occasional spanker. Somebody who is old enough to be able to see what happened over the past 40 years or so. Somebody who feels that we are reaching the limits of what can be called “consensual spanking fun”.
I have met personally with a few spanking models that went completely down the gurgle after their “use by date” had finished and I was not pleased by what I heard and saw…
Don’t get me wrong, I am NOT accusing anyone in the spanking world. If I did I should start with myself. But I want to put emphasis on an issue that causes grave concern to me and I felt like airing and sharing these feelings…
Funbun
@Funbun
I hope you don’t mind if I throw my two cents into your side of the discussion.
I think you may be conflating two separate issues. One issue is severity and one issue is consuality. Frankly, the two issues have very little to do with each other. The only way they meet is if you have the case of a top who doesn’t respect limits, someone whose severity goes beyond what is consensual.
But, here’s the disagreement I have with what (I think) you are saying. It sounds like you are implying that you can witness a scene between two players – or perhaps watch a video – and determine from your perspective whether or not the scene is consensual, based in some part on the severity, or perhaps, the style, of the scene. I, personally, don’t play as much as Richard, but I play enough and have spent time in both the spanking world and the broader BDSM world, and I can tell you first hand that looks can be very deceiving. What may appear to be non-consensual from the outside is actually totally consensual. You might even be surprised that, at least from my anecdotal experience, that when limits get tested, it is the bottom that is the one who requests the high intensity. Seriously, I kid you not.
Now, of course, there is abuse that happens within the scene. Every bottom I know has experienced it at least once, to some degree. The thing is, the only way to know if what you are seeing is an abusive scene, is to, as they say, get it from the horse’s mouth. In this NS video we have the perfect example of a scene that appears harsh, but we know, for a fact (because we have it from the actors themselves) that this was totally consensual and a gratifying experience to boot!
I think it is important to understand that one person’s “severe pain” is another person’s perfect level of intensity. One cannot judge this from the outside because one cannot be inside another person’s skin and know what feels good and right to them.
And lastly, “the spankee needs and wants and desires such punishments” is not an excuse for abuse if, in fact, that is in fact what the spankee wants and what the spankee asks for. Yeah, a top can CLAIM that the spankee wanted something that they in fact neither wanted nor asked for, which would qualify for abuse. But, believe it or not, often when tops say that the spankee wanted it, that’s exactly true. You can’t infer the want or the consent of the bottom from the harshness, severity, style, context, or tone of the scene. Ask the bottom if you want the answer, because that’s the only way you will get the real story.
This subject has taken a flight on the following forum and I like to invite all who are interested to have a look… At:
http://www.britishspanking.com/forums/showthread.php?p=924175&posted=1#post924175
Lots of words, but very good content. Well that’s what I think, reading all the responses.
Funbun
PS: We are waiting for your additional comments Richard 🙂
Funbun, it is the weekend and I am going to have very little time to respond at the moment, there is a huge show that I have to prepare for tonight.
Quite frankly, after reading your latest post on British Spanking I fear that I will be wasting my breath. Clearly you feel that all online spanking producers suck in their efforts to personally please you. That is not something that I am really prepared to debate right now as I have 4 sites to run. The issue of perceived severity in online spanking content is yours, not mine, and I’m not going to devote my blog to addressing your issues. As I have noticed from the various links coming to my post, there are plenty of places for you to continue your quest to have spanking content produced as you wish to have it produced.
I would suggest that you take up these issues with the producers of spanking content, but I’m fully aware that you do that already to the people who work hard to produce spanking material.
This is a cop out I know, but it is also something that I feel very strongly about. If you don’t like the way that Clare, Chelsea, Tony, David, Dallas, Firmhand or Northern Spanking conduct their own business, why don’t you pick up a camera and do something about it? That is a far more productive way to get the change that you seek, far better than telling every spanking website known to man that the producers of online content suck and you shouldn’t waste your money. That is what it really comes down to, by telling everyone how much these websites are abusing people you are taking money out of their pockets, and therefore in turn you are trying to take away my enjoyment, and the enjoyment of others. You may not like that opinion but that is how I feel. I really don’t need someone telling me what I should or should not enjoy, I am able to make that decision for myself.
Now I know that you will want to respond to this and you are quite welcome to, just do me a favor and don’t refer to it as banks or drug addicts or mainstream television. We are talking about spanking here, can’t we compare apples to apples, and not apples to Kiwi fruit? :-). That said though, if you don’t produce your own spanking material, perhaps you have no apples to compare it with in the first place.
Okay, I’m off to party for the weekend. Have at it everyone :-). Just know that I won’t be coming home tonight as a certain little pin up has requested that I go home with her tonight and spank her!!
Can’t say much in my defense as it is clear that you are as prejudiced as you tell me I am.
And I can see that you are in a hurry as you clearly don’t really read what I’m writing.
You consider that a waste of time anyway.
You could at least ask yourself : “Why has he been a member of all these sites almost since their beginning, when he doesn’t like the content?”
I’m just trying to raise awareness about the increasing severity that I observe at many sites as I wonder: “Do we really need this?”
But I’m perfectly happy to close the subject here and let you play the way YOU want.
sorry, i have a lot to say but from 67 years i can’t
do it quick.
just lets say i back rw all the way. i have my reasons.
you don’t want to know me when i start but you may soon.
who do you love??
ddon
Funbun,
As I stated, you are welcome to air your views. I can’t see where I am being prejudiced though, I’m pretty clear in my original post that I have no prejudice as to how people play and how they portray their content. I certainly have no prejudice as to your preference either. If I have any prejudice, it would be against your quest to tell people what they should be watching, I’m against most forms of censorship and that is where my problem lies with what you write, when it relates to spanking of course.
I do read what you wrote, but my opinion follows that of Ludwig when he said In reply, you basically ignore all these points, you simply repeat your original assertions, and you drift off by using another hyperbolic “comparison” of doubtful accuracy to support your views, i.e. the financial crisis.
I prefer plain talk, and you seem to be sugarcoating what you really want to say by talking of health care reform and post war banking rituals.
So let me take a line of yours and address it:
So, if we experience a spanking video as excessive we should not come up – as I believe – with arguments like “Who am I to judge?” or “I have learned to accept individual choices and leave it to the players.” It is my firm opinion that we should protest excessive force, damaged bodies and harmed minds.
I completely and utterly disagree with you. The very nature of that fact that we enjoy spanking as a sexual fetish, tells me that we are in no position whatsoever to judge anyone else and how they like to play. There are a great many things that people have as a sexual fetish that I personally find vile and disgusting, however, I will defend their right to do those things.
Unless I am mistaken having read your writings, you are trying to censor what video producers put out and THAT is what I am so vehemently against. You downplay the line “Who am I to judge what others like”, but I ask you “Who AM I to judge what someone else likes”?
Now so that you don’t misread my line “Wasting my time”. As I mentioned before, the issue of severity in spanking content is yours, and having read the various forums that you linked my post to, it seems that nearly everyone else feels that way. I would consider it a waste of my time because I have no desire to be a part of your wish to change how people produce their spanking content. I completely disagree with that mindset, therefore it would be a waste of my time to continue discussing it and giving it airtime.
As for your last line:
But I’m perfectly happy to close the subject here and let you play the way YOU want.
You say that like it is a problem. I PERSONALLY pay for this space on the Internet to share my views and takes on the spanking world and how it applies to me. All boxes are left open on here for people to say what they wish, because even if I don’t agree with them, I will not censor them. As I pay for this site you will get to see, read and hear how I play, and you will have as much opportunity as you wish to disagree with me. There is a big difference with me telling everyone what I like in the spanking world, and telling them what they SHOULD like instead. That is why I paid for this site in the first place, to have my little corner of the spanking world to share my views.
You can write what you want on my blog, just be aware that someone may disagree with it. When I posted the recent video, there was a mixed reaction as to whether people enjoyed it or not. Did that bother me? Of course it didn’t!! People have open minds and they can enjoy what it is that they want to enjoy, not what they are told to enjoy.
“I will keep turning girls over my knee and spanking them, I will continue to tolerate bratty behavior that I neither particularly enjoy, nor am fond of. Topping from the bottom will continue to happen, as will a lot of my personal needs being overlooked for the 80-20 split in favor of what the bottom wants.”
Okay, that made me a little sad. I think that last line is an important reminder that it is just about us (the spankees)…that our partners have preferences and desires, too.
Otherwise, I’ve really enjoyed reading your posts and the comments of other readers. Very interesting discussion, for sure.
LOL — I *meant* to say — that is IS NOT just about us (the spankees)!
Hi Richard,
I wrote as a conclusion to the people who reacted at the British Spanking Community:
Thanks to all for your open and honest contributions. They are all much appreciated and taught me a lot.
Ludwig is probably right in stating that I got carried away as Richard did at his forum.
My comparisons with the “Bigger” world may have sounded over-dramatic.
Basically what I wanted to say is that a see a general development that shows spanking becoming more and more intense and severe.
And I compared that with our “Bigger World” where I see the same. (Through my very own eyes, indeed)
From the contributions here I understand that – in our little spanking world – such clearly is a wanted development and shouldn’t be seen as “abuse”.
Please accept that I never had the intention to judge anyone in the spanking world negatively. My ‘outspokeness’ might have given that impression tough.
When people play and do what they love and like, it should be all right.
I aired some concern (fed by Richard’s article about “abuse”) and have strong feelings about developments that – as I believe – go the wrong direction. Of course that is from my very own point of view and I still (even at my age) feel an urge to ‘protest’ against develoments I see as taking the wrong direction. And yes, I would love to see more people doing the same.
Thank you all for your participation in this discussion as it assisted me in getting a better understanding. Some disagreements will remain, but isn’t that part of human life…?
So far my comments. I admit… I’m a “SOFTIE”.
Richard interesting post as long as the girl is happy that is good best wishes tim .
I think it is so funny that I would care about what this sad and rather pathetic man would have to say. I mean he was told already by countless spanking models ( DO NOT CONTACT ME ) He falls in love in his little cyber-world with these models. He feels the only way to get attention from them is to try to impose his views on them ( ones that they DO NOT AGREE WITH MIND YOU )
He is going on and on about DVD’s this and that. When in all actuality he is just a file sharer and pirate. How can we as producers feel nothing but contempt for this person ( I use the term loosely) You see he is making this grand spectacle as just one more way to get attention.To somehow try to bring some sort of excitement to his very sad and pathetic little life….Isn’t that right Eric Becker of New Zealand? You have your views that you try to impose on others…because you are right…and they are wrong.
Like Sabrina has already pointed out to him via email. Eric you remind us of the same vanilla people out there that would lable us “freak” or “pervert”
The same ones that try to impose thier views…because they are right… we are ALL wrong.
i have stated my peace… to pursue this further is just buying in to this attention whore’s little attempt to say ” Hey look at me…see how important I am ?!”…..”See how much I have to say!?
I for one will not continue to play his game… life is WAY to short!
Dallas ( owner Dallas Spanks hard.com )
To FUNBUN! ERIK BECKER…
Erik Becker. You have been told to BACK OFF by all my spanking model friends. Now you try to blackmail and use extortion against them if they do not support your views. You realize that can have you end up in the joint right? What I will do is notify the powers that be in New Zealand. Don’t know what you are capable of…( Your words to a spanking model) It is YOU who should know what I am capable of mate.
Now I am telling you ONCE AND FOR ALL! STOP STALKING, THREATENING, AND TRYING TO BLACKMAIL MY FREINDS! THEY WANT NO PART OF YOU TRACER! THEY USED TO PITY YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE A LONELY PATHETIC LITTLE CREATURE. GO BE AN ATTENTION WHORE SOMEWHERE ELSE AND LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!!~!!!
DALLAS
“I would also like to tie my partner naked to a four poster bed and blindfold her, then use my words and actions to bring her to a state of ecstatic bliss by doing as I please to get her to the point that I want to get her to, with her consensual non consent of course. That will shock a lot of you who know me because it seems out of character, but it only scratches the surface of what I would consider to be nirvana.”
I, too, found that to be hot!!!